canis is in the market for an XC90

[foggyjames]

I'm a bit concerned that you're underestimating the complexities of Canbus. You might get away with the interior lights, but the DRLs are definitely not just a wire-snip on a P2. The good news is that if you find someone with VIDA, they can be turned off. I suspect that it's headlights-as-DRLs or nothing (i.e. headlight switch works "normally"), though.

You might be able to get some of the other stuff to work how you want, but modern cars really don't like you messing with their electrics without that first involving software...

cheers

James

[canis]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I'm a bit concerned that you're underestimating the complexities of Canbus. You might get away with the interior lights, but the DRLs are definitely not just a wire-snip on a P2. The good news is that if you find someone with VIDA, they can be turned off. I suspect that it's headlights-as-DRLs or nothing (i.e. headlight switch works "normally"), though.

You might be able to get some of the other stuff to work how you want, but modern cars really don't like you messing with their electrics without that first involving software...

cheers

James

Yes, it's certainly more complicated from what I've seen so far. I am qualified in computer networking, so although I might not know the canbus protocol, I'm confident I'll at least know when to stop. I understand the difference between data signals and normal electrical current.

Having said that, I'm currently in reciept of a ton of abuse on facebook after getting annoyed at a meme I saw just once too often. Apparently the manual now tells us not to drink the contents of the battery, but people 50 years ago were smarter than that, and could adjust their own valves.

It annoys me, because the manual supplied with cars tells neither of these things for all the years I've been reading them. Haynes manuals obviously explain valve clearances, but these aren't supplied with the car. I checked the XC90 manual provided, and it doesn't say not to drink the battery. I simply don't believe it's true, but then I'm one of those strange people who actually does RTFM. It's just yet another attack on the young by an older generation in an ivory tower. It's not fair, and I didn't want to tolerate it, because age strikes me as a very peculiar thing to find fault with. We all start out young. And we all get old, hopefully.

So I wrote back criticising the meme. A valve, as we all know, is just a dumb solid object with no adjustment at all. What they obviously mean is cam followers. I had presumed people would understand that included tappets without saying - but apparently not. Some people got it. Some people understood exactly what I meant even if they didn't agree. It appears hatred for the young is very well supported. But others were extremely unpleasant, insisting I don't know what I'm talking about. Logical fallacies then were thrown around like sweeties at a pantomime, I got it all - ad hominim, argument from incredulance, bandwagon, straw man, argument from (their own) authority (non-evidenced, of course), and burden of proof.

Apparently I'm a youtube mechanic. The bookcase of books I have does not exist. I mean, I've done all my own repairs since my first car in 1986. I've taken cars entirely to bits and back together again. I've overhauled engines, I've welded things, and I was trained in vehicle body repair which covers a lot of suspension components too as well as the collision damage to engines, especially radiators, which occurs during front end impacts. Don't forget that usually includes intercoolers these days, oil coolers, etc. I've had cars hanging from each end on chains using hydraulics. I've even hung a car from tree on one very desperate occasion. I've even built buses! I admit where my knowledge meets it's limits quite freely, I don't bull**** at all, and I'm willing to accept correction if I'm wrong. But I didn't deserve this level of name-calling.

So I'm starting to doubt myself now. I'd like to just shrug it off and say it isn't affecting me, but it actually is. I've stopped engaging with the thread, but the notifications keep on coming. This isn't slowing down.

It's not the first time it's happened, although it is by far the worst. Like the time a chap tried telling me that he was perfectly able to tell if a tyre was underinflated just by looking, and 20 years in the trade said so. I tried to explain if he's sending cars out by looking without testing, he'd be unaware of his own level of inaccuracy. But still he argued that a poxy £1.50 on a tyre pressure guage was a waste of money, and that I didn't know what I was talking about since most cars these days have their own tyre pressure monitoring systems. Again, I tried to explain that if that's the case, they'd know about it since they're looking straight at a dashboard telling them so, but this fell on deaf ears and was simply exploited as a means of attacking me once again. Circular arguments then followed.

Do these people think contradiction equals intelligence? I'm not certain why they feel this abuse makes them appear clever.

I'm not saying you're doing that, by the way, you aren't. I appreciate the input from the members of the forum here. It's a very pleasant place to be and I'm glad to be back. But I'm really starting to think maybe I should just hang up the thousands of pounds worth of tools I apparently don't own and just retire from the scene.

So I'm feeling a bit low right now. What really stung was when they said I was a disservice to all those folks who'd spent weekends fixing cars with their dads. My dad, despite being a competant home mechanic himself, never taught me anything. That hurt. I *wish* I coudl've fixed up an old car with my dad. I tried and tried, but he always remained distant and focussed on his "new" family. We haven't spoken since his poison letter about ten years ago.

Maybe they're right. Maybe I should just give it all up. Maybe I'm deluded. Maybe insane...

* * * * *

I appreciate the warning. Do you know anyone with VIDA? I would prefer a software solution, but for some reason Volvo et al keep everything under wraps. It's a twenty year old car, nobody will be taking this for dealership servicing now. It's served it's target market already. They've had their money out of it. And me keeping it on the road means they still sell me parts, which they wouldn't if it wasn't.

I've got a book on order which hasn't yet arrived, containing all sorts of information about the XC90 wiring and modules. I'll be better informed once I read it. Then I can make a proper assessment for what I'd like to make happen and if it can be done.

As a very hasty generalisation, the trick is to ensure the computer thinks nothing has changed. As far as it's concerned, it's sent out a signal to switch the light on. It doesn't need to know it's not a light, but is in fact a relay with sufficient resistence in line to appear identical, and the relay can then be used to do other useful things drawing current from somewhere else. No matter what happens, eventually some final module somewhere inevitably must control the power for the bulb, and that's something I can test for harmlessly. Or at least, that's the theory. It's not just cars, either. You should see what I did to my freezer. What's going to blow this method is the gradual fade. That usually occurs electronically within the lamp itself, but in this case it might be entirely different. At the time of writing, I don't actually know the answer to this, I've been focussing on other things.

The really complicated bit will be power use. I don't mind the computer doing it's thing from the car's battery, but I'm trying to make the actual current producing the actual light draw from an auxilliary battery instead. This may yet prove to be impossible, or at least too complicated for me. In which case, I'll stop.

But I thank you for your concern. I'll tread even more carefully. Or maybe just give up, I dunno, I'm feeling really deflated right now.

If anyone in the manchester area has VIDA, please message me. I have beer. In the meantime, keep supplying me knowledge. Because I'm not so hubristic to believe I don't need any more. Every day is an opportunity to learn something new.

[john.wigley]

'Morning, 'canis'. Thank you. You have just very eloquently explained why I don't 'do' social media.

But I'm not convinced that the abuse that you suffered is an attack on young people per se.

I rank advice not to drink the contents of your battery on the same level as, for example, that given on certain chocolate bars, promoted as containing fruit and nuts, that 'this product may contain nuts'. Things like these should be obvious, but companies nowadays are obliged to state the obvious in an attempt to avoid possible litigation.

That is just one example, I could go on. I think it stems more from a lack of common sense and people, of all ages, not just the young, not being allowed (or considered able) to think for themselves. Very simply, I don't need to put my hand in the fire to know that it will burn, or go to the North Pole to know that I will find ice there.

Protect the young and vulnerable by all means, but also give people credit for the innate common sense that most of us are fortunate enough to have been born with.

Regards, John.

[Simmy]

hi dont let keyboard warriors get to you canis i have vida and live close by in chadderton.

[canis]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

I'm not convinced that the abuse that you suffered is an attack on young people per se. ... give people credit for the innate common sense that most of us are fortunate enough to have been born with.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant attacks based on age in both directions are a form of predjudice. The internet meme annoyed me because it's not true. There is no such warning, at least none I can find. False memes seem to be a new form of propaganda, only this time it's personal. Anyone can make one and go viral.

Originally Posted by Simmy

hi dont let keyboard warriors get to you canis i have vida and live close by in chadderton.

I think we spoke before. I was meaning to go through my history and find you again. Thanks for the offer. We'll meet up and drink beer soon, I've just got a couple more bits to do first. Then we'll hit it.

Does VIDA also do OBDii codes? I did build a machine to read OBD codes built into a trolley. Basically a common-or-garden PC. It didn't survive the vibrations from being rolled across the concrete floor and broke down in the typical manner of a PC shaken to death after only a couple of uses. Yes, I know, I should've gone wireless. Or used a laptop. I try to work with what I have available. It seemed like a good idea at the time. We live and learn.

Thanks for the reassurance.

[Simmy]

vida is a comprehensive tool can read codes suggest possible repair its a parts list and a workshop manual it can also test various components and read live data from the engine for multiple volvo models its not intuitive and can be quite difficult to use . itsa must have for any volvo owner ps there are multiple volvo groups in the north west who have member with lots of contacts for volvo related things..

[foggyjames]

Sorry about the slow reply - I was on holiday!

Sorry to hear that you've been getting an earful online. I generally don't engage with such things - too many people are too full of vitriol (and can vote...and might even sit on a jury one day - horrifying!).

I don't mean to sound flippant, but if you'd gone into that much detail in your previous posts, I might not have sounded a warning in those terms. Your long post there gives me much more faith that you know what you're doing. I just didn't want you tearing your new car apart, possibly doing harm to modules by accidentally shoving 12v where it isn't wanted, and the reference to the S/V40 wire-snip for DRLs had me nervous that you were grossly underestimating the complexity of what would be required for some of this. At least the DRL issue (assuming you're happy with "completely off") is a fairly easy win if you have VIDA. On a P3, you need to buy software to turn off the DRLs

Yes, you're right about shunt resistors measuring load being the method for triggering most errors. If you can match the original load, you should be fine. They can be very sensitive - I fitted a spoiler (with integrated high-level brake light) to my first P2, and it threw a warning every time you hit the brakes. They were both LED-based, and both had a similar number of LEDs, so I had assumed in my innocence that all would be fine. I eventually wired it in parallel with the original (which was hidden behind the spoiler), and all was well. I'm sure I could have spoofed the load presented by the original (assuming it was higher than the one in the spoiler), but decided that life was too short, and the pub was beckoning...!

I suspect that the fading interior lights are controlled directly from the UEM or CEM (I forget which), and that their output will be via a transistor (which is achieving the fade). I suspect that you could put in a separate switched feed and a diode to prevent back-feeding the module which controls them.

I suppose my original point was just to highlight that modern(ish) cars are so software driven that modifying them gets ever-harder. I put a M66 (6-speed) gearbox in my P2 V70 D5 (Euro 3), and the cruise control wouldn't work in 6th, as it knew the gear ratio was wrong. I tried to get that resolved for the next 130k (I tried an ECU from an AWD version, as they had an M66, but then it didn't match the BCM, CEM, etc...and looked into modifying the gear calculation code in EDC15, as someone had done it in a VW Passat with the same issue)...but never found anyone who could actually do the job (at the time), and again decided life was too short. I suspect, 8 years later, that I could find someone to do it today, but I decided at that point that modern daily drivers were too complex to modify unless you already know what you're doing with software...and that next time I'd just buy what I want in the first place, and leave my tinkering for older, simpler kit. Maybe if it was my only project car, and I could devote some time to figure out how to change that gear calc code myself, I'd have enjoyed the challenge, but it seemed like one thing too many.

Oh, and I'd get yourself a VIDA setup if you can - invaluable!

cheers

James

[john.wigley]

'foggyjames' response above to 'canis' earlier post evidences the font of knowledge, wisdom and experience, coupled with the goodwill and support which illustrates all that is best about the forum.

I freely admit that 'modern' car electronics are beyond me and leave well alone. 'foggyjames' states, rightly, that this makes it more difficult to modify today's cars than those of yesteryear, although even they could have their moments ...

Back in '66, I bought my first car, a '51 Ford, itself a pre-war design. It was equipped with semaphore indicators (aka Trafficators), arms that popped out from the side of the car to indicate the driver's intended direction of travel. They were illuminated from within by a small bulb for night-time visibility.

Although after-market flasher sets were available from the likes of Halfords, yours truly had the bright idea of wiring a flasher unit into the circuit to cause the bulbs to flash, hence making them more noticeable at night. They did, but the arms themselves popped out, dropped down, popped out, dropped down.... Ah well, thought I, c'est la vie, back to the drawing board.

Take heart, 'canis', it was ever thus!

Hope that you are enjoying your new car!

Regards, John.

[canis]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

Sorry about the slow reply - I was on holiday!

Sorry to hear that you've been getting an earful online. I generally don't engage with such things - too many people are too full of vitriol (and can vote...and might even sit on a jury one day - horrifying!).

I'm still reeling with it, honestly. I hope you had a good trip.

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I don't mean to sound flippant, but if you'd gone into that much detail in your previous posts, I might not have sounded a warning in those terms. Your long post there gives me much more faith that you know what you're doing. I just didn't want you tearing your new car apart, possibly doing harm to modules by accidentally shoving 12v where it isn't wanted, and the reference to the S/V40 wire-snip for DRLs had me nervous that you were grossly underestimating the complexity of what would be required for some of this. At least the DRL issue (assuming you're happy with "completely off") is a fairly easy win if you have VIDA. On a P3, you need to buy software to turn off the DRLs

No, no, no, don't misunderstand me. It was good warning, and I appreciate it. The V40, going from memory, was mostly about the lightswitch and how it had been configured. This was all bourne from data collected when accidentally buying a Phase 1.5 car as source parts for a Phase 1 car. The wiring isn't quite the same, the plugs are configured differently. It is possible to make it work ... but you gotta be mad or have a real need...

It's a trivial thing, I suppose. But I just loved the way it looked, it's deep metallic green paint with it's pretty amber marker lamps. My intention was to have all the running lamps simply illuminate with the sidelights but I never quite got it that far. But I really couldn't see the point in driving around with headlamps blazing on a sunny day in June, and decided to fix it once and for all.

The XC90 doesn't have as many lights, I notice. So I think just an "all off unless switched" operation would suit me best if that can be programmed.

Originally Posted by foggyjames

...<excellent memory snipped>... but decided that life was too short, and the pub was beckoning...!

I haven't ruled that out yet! I'm concerned about airbag disturbance, that must be avoided no matter what. Is the Haynes manual worth buying anymore? It would at least explain how things come apart, maybe. If it genuinely is, I'd love to add it to the collection, but I was rather disappointed with the last one. And it was paperback. Eww.

For brevity,. I won't quote, but you make a valid point about the coding involved. And it's frustrating, since I could almost certainly adapt the code to do what I'd prefer if I had access to it, but that level of electronics is beyond my capability. I've never flashed an EPROM in my life. It's just not something I've ever made any progress educating myself about. But I do know people who do. Hmm...

As for tinkering with old kit, old cars are getting expensive. I must have been a fool to sell my Sierra. Although it did force me into learning about the V40, which was my wife's car at the time, and it seemed so new and expensive I didn't want to even touch it. But the forum was a goldmine of information. And I really struck gold, the timing was perfect, I rode the wave of cheap spare parts until they gradually started disappearing from the streets. It was a glorious swan song for Volvo. A truly great car.

Anyway... I've been busy with a few things, I've got more house repairs than I can keep up with, so I've not made much progress with the XC. However tempting it might be, 3pts per tyre is too rich for me. There are still many questions to be answered before deciding how best to procede. I need to identify which jobs are urgent.

STOP PRESS: Since writing all that (and leaving it on my desktop for about two weeks while I got increasingly frustrated) I now have it on the road with all new tyres. Now I can actually drive the thing, I'm getting a feel for it's needs.

There seems to be some latency. Driving gently one wouldn't notice, but when I put my foot down it takes a few seconds to notice, but then goes off like a rocket. For such a heavy car it can really pick up it's skirts and run, but it does take a few seconds to get it's shot together. I'm not sure if that's just normal behaviour, I'm still quite new to automatics, but this seems unusually long.

Under hard braking the vehicle skews to the right. I haven't looked at the front brakes at all, but it's possible some air got in when my wife was playing girlies instead of actually pressing the pedal, on account of me giving up and getting angry and leaving it on ramps with it's nose in the air. The WhatsApp message exchange was priceless. ( ~~~ "... and actually push this time!" ~~~ ) But it's possible one of the front calipers is malfunctioning, and now that I'm actually using it this needs attention right away. It could also be worn bushes, I suppose. One leg could be being pulled out of alignment beyond specification - but I'm hearing no knocks at all.

There is a vibration which occurs under hard accelleration, particularly at motorway speeds. According the the service history, both front shafts have been changed. I haven't verified this, but I've no reason to doubt it, so I'm guessing it's the centre shaft for the rear axle. I've only had one prop shaft fail in my life, and it was a long time ago, so I haven't much experice here to draw upon. A forum search told of gearbox and engine mountings, if this is true then I'll be happy to change them but I need to identify the failed component.

Over the coming year, it is my intention to change all the bushes and mounts. All the rubber bits, basically. And then I'll have a brand new car.

As usual, all thoughts ideas opinions welcommed as I stab around in the dark with this beautiful monster. I am in love with this car. So having reached the first milestone, getting it street legal, the next stage is to get it into a /sustainably/ street legal state.

[foggyjames]

Having the headlight switch "do what it should" is absolutely an option - and an easy one to sort out with a brief VIDA session.

The delay you're seeing there is a double-whammy of slushbox and turbo lag. What year is yours? If it's a -2005 D5, the VNT on the turbo is vacuum controlled, and any loss of vacuum (worn vac pump, split engine mounts, etc) will affect performance...although you tend to get a warning message ("Engine Service Required") before it's obvious anything is wrong.

Not sure about the vibration and pulling, but I suspect you're thinking along the right lines - front driveshafts (how recently were they replaced?) for the vibration, and either brakes or - more likely, IMO - front suspension for the pulling under braking.

cheers

James