850rpm to 2500rpm performance ?

[acshortt5]

Originally Posted by M D E

I see you can change the 70 series cars to a short throw gear change, has anyone tried this ?

Just going back to my first comment I do not get that 'pushed back in your seat' power I did from my 850 T5 which felt very quick off the mark .. The C70 gets there but without any drama until 2500 rpm plus ....

I bet you can't make a shorter throw than my car lol ;-)

[foggyjames]

I'm not quite sure what we have and haven't covered...

I don't think 850s had the "lower boost in first gear" business, so that might explain the difference. A chip might well remove this, but do you really want that? My V70R (which is barely any more powerful than your T5) will spin the fronts in anything other than a straight line in the dry once it gets into second (with Eagle F1s), and that will only be worse in first.

The V70R is a slug in first...a fairly normal 2 litre petrol or TD will keep up...but once you get it into second, you're off. As long as the run-off is reasonably long, I quite like it that way. In first, they still think they have a chance. Go for second at about about 3500rpm, and you're at around 2500rpm...right where the turbo spools, and you've got a clear run on the power up to 60mph...and they don't have a chance. The only problem with the R is that it still wants to spin the wheels if it's anything other than perfectly dry...and with it having an LSD, that means no steering unless you lift. It can get interesting.

I can't see the appeal of any more power below 40mph. It can barely put down what it has. Drive something fast with proper traction, and you'll soon see the difference. My housemate's 740 would eat either of the T5/Rs in our house alive up to 40mph (and beyond, albeit not by quite as much).

cheers

James

[IC]

Hi James, it sounds like you need to get your car sorted if you are having wheelspin issues in a straight line as it's just wasted power. A progressive map would be start - what's your front suspension like? You've said that you have issues with your LSD having to lift as you have no steering - that should not be an issue. Have a look at these two videos of my S70R on You Tube:
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=88593

[foggyjames]

I only lose steering when both front wheels are spinning - typically driving like a loony in the wet. It's exactly the same effect as spinning both rears on a RWD car...they're not really making contact with the road properly any more! It's most obvious in the snow, when you can easily put half a turn of steering on, and still go straight on...with the TRACS going nuts.

The car seems pretty tight, and it's better than the non-R manuals I've driven...I just think it's the limitations of the 'concept' of the FWD cars...and why I maintain that while they're excellent fast motorway and A-road cars (I genuinely really like mine, don't get me wrong), they're not "performance" cars, as such...and this is where an equivalent BMW, for example, has an advantage.

cheers

James

[acshortt5]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I only lose steering when both front wheels are spinning - typically driving like a loony in the wet. It's exactly the same effect as spinning both rears on a RWD car...they're not really making contact with the road properly any more! It's most obvious in the snow, when you can easily put half a turn of steering on, and still go straight on...with the TRACS going nuts.

Sounds like you need to refresh the suspension on it James. Mine used to be like that before I renewed the shocks and springs

The car seems pretty tight, and it's better than the non-R manuals I've driven...I just think it's the limitations of the 'concept' of the FWD cars...and why I maintain that while they're excellent fast motorway and A-road cars (I genuinely really like mine, don't get me wrong), they're not "performance" cars, as such...and this is where an equivalent BMW, for example, has an advantage.

Ah but how many bmw's are better than a FWD volvo in the snow??? There is an art to driving a FWD quickly - granted is isn't as easy as a RWD/4WD but when you get it right it still puts a grin on your face

cheers

James

See above lol

[foggyjames]

Of the four FWDs we've had, only the V70R loses steering when spinning its wheels...and it's the only one with an LSD (or is it a locker?). It's exactly what I'd expect to happen, too.

The suspension is fine...it's exactly the same as Ryan's which is all-new. It's just too much power for the available grip.

cheers

James

[acshortt5]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

Of the four FWDs we've had, only the V70R loses steering when spinning its wheels...and it's the only one with an LSD (or is it a locker?). It's exactly what I'd expect to happen, too.

The suspension is fine...it's exactly the same as Ryan's which is all-new. It's just too much power for the available grip.

cheers

James

The standard lsd is a viscous diff - not the best but better than nothing. Its only really going to help you when going round corners, if you are spinning both wheels going in a straight line it will do sweet FA. I would have thought that the tracs would have reigned it in though when setting off - as it does with mine and I don't have a lsd :-( (I had one on the 240 which made it fun for drifting round roundabouts lol)

If the suspension is ok I'm now wondering if somebody has wound the turbo actuator up too tight? Does it boost progressively or come in a big lump? Has it been remapped?

The only other possibility that springs to mind is crap tyres but I seem to recall you had some decent ones on it when I saw it at grantham.

[foggyjames]

All the others we've had / have just sit there with one tyre alight, while the R lights them both up - if you try hard enough! Obviously you do get more traction out of the deal (a lot more), and it's well worth having...but the byproduct is that *if* you get them both to spin, you get no steering. It occasionally catches me out in the wet. Just something you have to remember!

TRACS works way, way better on autos. From memory, it pretty much just puts the brakes on (a bit) and pulls a bit of ignition timing. On a manual, it makes wheelspin a *bit* less bad...whereas it actually does work on an auto. The super-tall first gear makes the slushers less prone to trouble anyway. Yeah, I've got Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3s on the front. I'm not aware that it's been mapped. I don't think it's quick enough to have been tweaked, to be honest. I should really hook a boost gauge up to it, though.

I wouldn't want to make too much out of it...I've been very, very impressed with the car. When I'm critical of the 'platform' I'm talking here about what happens when you try to extract everything the car can give. It's an extremely capable car for driving at "80%". What I wonder, though, is the wisdom in trying extract more power at lower speeds.

In my view, the factory set-up (I'm talking now about my FWD manual R) is ideal up to 30mph or so - it generally keeps things civilised. Any more power, and you'd just get wild wheelspin. It's not exactly quick, though, and a decent 2.0 petrol or TD will keep up with it. That's the limitation introduced by trying to pull 1.5 tons off the line using the front axle. Once you've got it rolling and you're into second, you're away. Conversely, above about 50mph, more power would be nice.

30-50 (i.e. in the fat bit of the torque curve in second) is the problem area in the factory setup. In anything other than a straight line, it can be a bit 'interesting'. Unlike first, you've now got full boost, but the ratio is still low enough to make a mess of your tyres. Leaving roundabouts which have a slight bump at the exit is a particular problem area. I've taken to feathering it until I'm over the bump, or shifting into third as I hit the bump, so as it goes light, I'm off the power. No such issues in the 740, despite it having similar weight, more torque and the same tyres...but the chassis layout gives it inherantly better grip for acceleration.

To summarise my reply to the OP...Ryan's old 850 T5 (an auto without TRACS) would fly off the line, but shred tyres. Its replacement, a C70 T5 (also an auto, with TRACS), is probably marginally slower, but you don't shred your tyres, nor leave black lines on the road. Basically, they made the 70-series cars a bit more "grown up" than the 850s...and that's why they feel a bit slower off the line. However, you're not missing much, as remove that torque limiter in first, and I'm pretty certain you'll just shred the tyres. Mine struggles for traction in second, so full boost in first would be a nightmare. On a warm summer's day, in a straight line, you could afford to have it put a few more horses to the road...but the last couple of months have proven to me the wisdom of Volvo's engineers knowing when they'd lost the battle for traction, and reigning in the power.

cheers

James

[John_C]

I can only agree with James, certainly I would say that both my 850's (both chipped, one manual, one auto) had more power than the platform could handle.

In particular my first 850 T5 was a manual, had a full ground-up suspension rebuild with Koni shocks, eibach springs, shock mounts, poly bushes, etc, etc, ran it on good tyres and it still overwhelmed the available grip.

I found it an absolute hoot and it was exactly what I wanted at the time. It took a bit of skill and finesse to get the most out of it - which was fortunate, as I only possess a little bit of those two attributes . There was no denying that I was spinning power away in the lower gears. The best word is probably "lairy"

Now in the higher gears, particularly in the dry, the car was an absolute killer. You were looking at something seriously pokey to keep up with it from 50 to "sorry officer, won't do it again" on the motorway.

I adored that car, and I still do, it was just so much fun - but I'm convinced it couldn't do 0-30 much quicker than when it was standard and it would also have been less consistent than the standard car at doing that too. By comparison the B10 is an absolute rocketship off the line because it just grips and goes.

Cheers,
John

[IC]

Originally Posted by John_C

I can only agree with James, certainly I would say that both my 850's (both chipped, one manual, one auto) had more power than the platform could handle.

In particular my first 850 T5 was a manual, had a full ground-up suspension rebuild with Koni shocks, eibach springs, shock mounts, poly bushes, etc, etc, ran it on good tyres and it still overwhelmed the available grip.

I found it an absolute hoot and it was exactly what I wanted at the time. It took a bit of skill and finesse to get the most out of it - which was fortunate, as I only possess a little bit of those two attributes . There was no denying that I was spinning power away in the lower gears. The best word is probably "lairy"

Now in the higher gears, particularly in the dry, the car was an absolute killer. You were looking at something seriously pokey to keep up with it from 50 to "sorry officer, won't do it again" on the motorway.

I adored that car, and I still do, it was just so much fun - but I'm convinced it couldn't do 0-30 much quicker than when it was standard and it would also have been less consistent than the standard car at doing that too. By comparison the B10 is an absolute rocketship off the line because it just grips and goes.

Cheers,
John

Hi John, It would be fantastic to see you and your Alpina at Combe on the 2nd of July!