What's the problem with electric cars?

[Moose Test]

I think you make some very fair and valid points there Andy. The greatest regret should perhaps be that we've been ignoring the real scale and impact of the problems for years and we can't get that time back. We're now left with having to make snap decisions without the amount of data we really need to be able to have confidence in them as their effects play out over the next century.

What a shame we didn't invest North Sea oil revenues as effectively as the Norwegian government did their mineral assets. If we'd not let private industry skim the milk, perhaps we could have afforded to continue the British state-owned nuclear program and already have the generating capacity that you rightly point out it would take decades to acquire now.

Or, maybe, we should have used it to create better insulation standards and better homes, rather than the rather pathetic stock we got post-50's and into the modern era. If we can't store enough renewable energy to balance load, which is reasonable, then we should have planned to reduce demand through increased efficiency.

[Andymharrison]

All true, we should have invested in some better politics.

[Thekilt]

I have recently purchased a full electric car, wanted one for ages but the biggest driver for us was the fact we also recently had solar panels and home battery storage installed. So far has bene great. Most of the time we charge off the solar during the day if we are home, or discharge the home battery into the car when back home which gives us between 10-15 miles range depending on what else we are using. If using the solar power during the day, we have charged up to 50 miles in one day however recently the best we have got is 30 with the current poor weather.
We have a driveway, and use Octopus intelligent tariff so if we do charge off the grid its 7.5p per kwh. For our 75kw battery that’s £5.65 for a full range of 225 miles. We don’t often charge away from home, and in our local town there are only 2 charges. Since we have had the car (3 months) we have used 3 non tesla chargers when out and about just for the hell of it, and generally only where you don’t need to pay parking fees while charging (nice loophole in some places). Have used a supercharger once when we went to London, and was nice to drive around London without the ULEZ charges. Charged up to 75% in about 15 mins from 10% and easily enough to come home. Norway has the best infrastructure where lampposts are utilised for charging in built up areas with on street parking to aid with this and we need to jump on board with this.
Most issues people have with electric cars are:
Charging – if you don’t have your own drive, then to be honest with the prices of public charging, its not worth it. I calculated that for our previous cars, we used to spend around £200 a month on fuel and get somewhere between 800 to 1000 miles per month. In comparison, the break even price for charging stations is 55p per kwh ish. Only worth it if you can charge at home.
Range anxiety – we don’t do too many long journeys, but with a car which does 225 miles in a single charge, and with the tesla superchager network its not a concern. This was the main reason we went with Tesla because of the availability of superchargers and the reliability of them. Other chargers are so hit and miss, I wouldn’t want to risk it.
Reliability – our car has been fine and we also have warranty until 2026 on everything except for usual tyres and consumables on a 2018 car (not bad really). Also with Tesla there are no servicing costs unlike some others (Jaguar for example every two years charge you £250 for a check, and then a 4 year service is £650 ish for changing hoses?!). Also brakes very rarely need to be changed due to regen braking, making consumables very low indeed.
Fire risk – To be honest there is a risk, however in the past two weeks I have seen three issues of BMW cars catching fire (not electric) and 1 was local to me. There haven’t been many tesla fires in the UK and compared to other car fires, it is far and few between so I think this is a bit of a false concern.
We have many discussions about new technologies at work, and now with BEV, more companies are looking at advancing battery technology to make range anxiety not an issue, and making batteries using more sustainable materials. These companies wouldn’t be looking into advancements in batteries as quickly if it wasn’t for the drive in the market. Before BEVs, Lithium batteries were mainly used in handheld devices which don’t need massive capacity or rapid charging, therefore no drive to advance the market. When batteries can extinguish the range anxiety, there wont be many reasons not to get one.
Hydrogen is most likely the best alternative for large vehicles for transporting goods for the time being. The big stumbling block is hydrogen refuelling stations (not many at all). However as previously mentioned why don’t we use our rail network as much for transporting goods? So many other countries do, and it seems the rail network could use a boost of private operators using the rail network and plunge some money into the infrastructure.
The other area our country needs to improve on, which is something my work are involved with, is community based infrastructure. MAN has produced thermal heating for communities (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65321487) which share the heat generated, and the same should happen with solar power. Each community has solar power which feeds into a central battery storage facility, and each house draws the energy from the solar/battery storage when required. This way less dependant on the grid, which also helps with the concern of increase of demand of electricity on the grid.

[Offgrid]

It looks as if EVs are dead now. I see a couple of ferry companies are refusing to ship EVs unless the batteries are remnoved. People are being advised not to park near them, and I cvan see a time when supermarkets will coral them in dedicated parking areas. Recovery requires flat bed transport, and storage in specialised areas afer accidents. Second hand values are approaching the level of quality bicycles. People are becoming aware of the massive damage they are doing to the environment. They have forced up the cost of insurance for all of us, and not jus their owners.

The toxic fall our from EV fires is horrendous, and one wonders how the insurance companies will handle the health claims that must start appearing as passers by realise the extent of the damge done to their health.

There is probably a good market for false exhaust pipes when owners start to become embarrassed to be seen driving EVs.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Offgrid

It looks as if EVs are dead now. I see a couple of ferry companies are refusing to ship EVs unless the batteries are remnoved. People are being advised not to park near them, and I cvan see a time when supermarkets will coral them in dedicated parking areas. Recovery requires flat bed transport, and storage in specialised areas afer accidents. Second hand values are approaching the level of quality bicycles. People are becoming aware of the massive damage they are doing to the environment. They have forced up the cost of insurance for all of us, and not jus their owners.

The toxic fall our from EV fires is horrendous, and one wonders how the insurance companies will handle the health claims that must start appearing as passers by realise the extent of the damge done to their health.

There is probably a good market for false exhaust pipes when owners start to become embarrassed to be seen driving EVs.

Er... so far as I am aware one Ferry company has banned them on one local route in Norway. I've not seen anyone recommending people not to park near them and if you call in the yard outside specialised then maybe?

I'm not a fan of EV's but most of these suggestions are baseless.

[Andymharrison]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

The other area our country needs to improve on, which is something my work are involved with, is community based infrastructure. MAN has produced thermal heating for communities (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65321487) which share the heat generated, and the same should happen with solar power. Each community has solar power which feeds into a central battery storage facility, and each house draws the energy from the solar/battery storage when required. This way less dependant on the grid, which also helps with the concern of increase of demand of electricity on the grid.

District heating systems like are a great idea and what we need far more of, most of the country could be on communal systems which give great efficiencies of scale, not that many of us live too remotely to use one. If Virgin Media can ruin the countries pavements for broadband I'm sure someone else could do it with a heating pipe just as easily!

Its criminal really that house builders come along and bulldoze a huge area of land to build an estate, but don't install the thermal pipework that would be easy to do at that point, then build a load of crap houses and don't put solar on the roof with the tiles when it would be easy to do.

[Moose Test]

Originally Posted by Andymharrison

Its criminal really that house builders come along and bulldoze a huge area of land to build an estate, but don't install the thermal pipework that would be easy to do at that point, then build a load of crap houses and don't put solar on the roof with the tiles when it would be easy to do.

Or:
- use any more than the bare minimum amount insulation specified by current building regs, or even fit that properly, let alone ensure correct airtightness
- provide any solar gain control / thermal management e.g. external shutters
- even think about grey water management and use, which would be easy at construction but near impossible (financially) afterwards

Or contribute in any meaningful way to mitigating increased demands on local infrastructure and services.

[Moose Test]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

Most issues people have with electric cars are:

I think one you missed from your list was cost of acquisition and ownership. I'd be very interested to know what you think your TCO would be, for example, over 3 years @15k miles p.a?

I'd be genuinely pleased to think that I was not contributing to the CO2 issue (let's put to one side that for those without solar+batteries at home, mains grid based charging inevitably means some CO2 production during generation - there's usually at least 5-20% of demand coming from CGGT) but honestly, there's a limit that I am willing and able to pay to make the switch, whilst there are other alternatives. I'd be very interested to know how far away my own arrangements (16+ year old 4.4L petrol Volvo @ 5k miles p.a.) are financially, from investing in an electric vehicle.

It feels as if it might make sense in terms of company car ownership or subsidised leasing schemes but I'm skeptical outside of those contexts.

[Thekilt]

Originally Posted by Moose Test

I think one you missed from your list was cost of acquisition and ownership. I'd be very interested to know what you think your TCO would be, for example, over 3 years @15k miles p.a?

I'd be genuinely pleased to think that I was not contributing to the CO2 issue (let's put to one side that for those without solar+batteries at home, mains grid based charging inevitably means some CO2 production during generation - there's usually at least 5-20% of demand coming from CGGT) but honestly, there's a limit that I am willing and able to pay to make the switch, whilst there are other alternatives. I'd be very interested to know how far away my own arrangements (16+ year old 4.4L petrol Volvo @ 5k miles p.a.) are financially, from investing in an electric vehicle.

It feels as if it might make sense in terms of company car ownership or subsidised leasing schemes but I'm skeptical outside of those contexts.

If you are willing to stick with an older car purchased outright, and keep maintaining it then that will be more financially viable. Our last car (XF estate) started going wrong and throwing up loads of errors, electrics going wrong and the next service would have been close to £2k with all 4 new tyres etc and we didnt have the cash at the time. I dont like doing the work myself anymore as it takes time away from the family, and had enough of replacing window regulators and other eletric gubbins. Our local garage bought it for £7k, and the tesla we got for £30k. Per month including finance and insurance is around £375. We used to spend £200 per month on fuel so an extra £150 per month if you take out the tax and even more if you take out how much we budgeted for services and replacing parts each year, and fuel would more if we were going away and now the most we would pay a month for electric in the car is £30 and thats if we charge it every night (which we dont) and most of the time its solar, so i would estimate around £10 per month of electric. No service costs, but tyres will need changing which is close to £1k.
But when we were looking at other cars such as the newer XF estate, V90, even Mondeos, all were above £20k which if you put the finance on, the fuel costs, and the service costs, equate to the same as the tesla. The only thing which is really annoying is the insurance. Not many insurers cover Tesla's and it is expensive, circa £900. can get that down to £700 if you have the black box but both the wife and I didnt like the idea of that (she is the one with the speeding fine already!)

Quick math, for 15,000 per year with a range of 225 miles gives 66.6 recharges. Round to 67, 75kwh battery gives a total kwh of 5025. With a charge cost of 7.5p per kwh thats £376.88 per year in electricity. thats only if you charage at home. We treat it like your phone. Plug it in over night to trickle up every night, adds about 30 miles every night as we are still on the 3 pin plug.

[Forg]

Originally Posted by Thekilt

If you are willing to stick with an older car purchased outright, and keep maintaining it then that will be more financially viable.

This has pretty much always been the case, at least to a degree ... I'm not surprised a Jaguar became too expensive to keep maintained , and you'd be in the minority if you lucked-out enough to cheaply maintain anything 20 years old from the Land Rover group, not to mention anything French or Italian ... and ahemm, 2003-spec VW DSG ...

There are obviously safety & maybe comfort/noise issues, but keeping your old bus on the road rather than replacing it with ANYTHING new is still financially & environmentally best, a large proportion of the time.

If buying a new vehicle of any sort, EV's now have an environmental break-even point of only about 18 months these days (after which they're better forever-after) - this has improved a lot since the first Priuses which I think were out to near 10 years. Financially it depends on your circumstance, your local tax system etc - leases on EV's as part of your salary package are for example tax-free in Oz (for the moment).