Transmission oil and shift quality

[innocent2k]

Hi

I have a MY2016 V60 with a TF-71SC transmission that is a bit jerky once it heats up, and I'm wondering if it's actually slipping (not to the extent of flaring, but certainly noticeable jerks when shifting a lot of the time).

Have 82000km on the car, transmission was flushed, but I'm wondering if this "universal" oil might be a directly wrong fit. This is the datasheet to the oil used:

https://www.lube1.swiss/app/download...L1-DEN-ATF.pdf

Viscosity at 40c is 32, while the Viscosity of JWS 3324, which is the actual spec, is 25. Is this a significant difference? By the looks of it, the Low Viscosity version from the same company ( https://www.lube1.swiss/app/download...DEN-LV-ATF.pdf ) would seem to be a better fit.

Had I known they would be putting a universal oil on it, I would have chosen a different workshop, but I am not educated enough to say if it makes any difference. Can anyone help me shed light on this? Thanks in advance.

[Clan]

Originally Posted by innocent2k

Hi

I have a MY2016 V60 with a TF-71SC transmission that is a bit jerky once it heats up, and I'm wondering if it's actually slipping (not to the extent of flaring, but certainly noticeable jerks when shifting a lot of the time).

Have 82000km on the car, transmission was flushed, but I'm wondering if this "universal" oil might be a directly wrong fit. This is the datasheet to the oil used:

https://www.lube1.swiss/app/download...L1-DEN-ATF.pdf

Viscosity at 40c is 32, while the Viscosity of JWS 3324, which is the actual spec, is 25. Is this a significant difference? By the looks of it, the Low Viscosity version from the same company ( https://www.lube1.swiss/app/download...DEN-LV-ATF.pdf ) would seem to be a better fit.

Had I known they would be putting a universal oil on it, I would have chosen a different workshop, but I am not educated enough to say if it makes any difference. Can anyone help me shed light on this? Thanks in advance.

Always use the correct oil , remember the grip of the clutches depend on it too , you could ruin the gearbox with the wrong oil.

[innocent2k]

Originally Posted by Clan

Always use the correct oil , remember the grip of the clutches depend on it too , you could ruin the gearbox with the wrong oil.

Thanks for the response, but you didn't quite reply to my real question. According to the manufacturer of the used oil, it IS the right one. So my question is whether or not a viscosity difference as stated actually is significant or not.

I'm now also reading that both JWS 3309 and JWS 3324 have been said to be AW1-compliant (which is what the manual says to use), and I'm now wondering if that's where the confusion may have its roots. Because the Volvo OEM bottle states JWS 3324. Nowhere on lube1's spec sheet can I find JWS 3324 or the TF71-SC (or even TF80-SC Gen2) mentioned specifically, but TF80-SC is mentioned "up to 2010" (the German word 'bis'). Yet I have a signed letter from lube1 that "confirms the oil is OK for use" on my car.

The reason I need to get to the bottom of this and fully understand the technical details (other than "use right oil"), is that I need to build a case towards the auto shop that did the transmission flush IF the reason for the slipping and uncomfortable shifting is due to the oil they used, as they refuse to admit any wrongdoing fobbing it off with "we have done this many times", but if I can document that they used oil way off the spec recommended by Volvo I may get somewhere.

My key suspicion here is that some auto shops doesn't realize there is a difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2 when used in Volvo, and that there may be something in the Volvo's TCM that relies on the lower viscosity... again, IF the difference is significant, which I still haven't found the answer to

Apologize for the lengthy read and obsessive attention to details, but I hope it became clearer why I need to know...

[Tannaton]

Firstly, that is not the correct oil, as their data sheet says it is suitable for the 6-speed on pre 2010 cars only - that's when the use of JWS3309 was ceased in favour of AW-1 (3342).

However... in my experience... JWS3309 is fine in the Gen2 TF80 if a full flush is done and adaptations reset. Same also for AW-1/3324 in Gen1 boxes.

However... not sure on the TF-71, I personally don't think it would do any harm but you need to get the correct oil in it - a full change - and the adaptations cleared to know for certain whether the box is playing up or the oil is having an impact.

@Clan may be able to confirm - do Volvo workshops still fill pre 2011MY cars (and pre 2013MY XC90) with 3309 or does everything get AW-1 now?

[innocent2k]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

Firstly, that is not the correct oil, as their data sheet says it is suitable for the 6-speed on pre 2010 cars only - that's when the use of JWS3309 was ceased in favour of AW-1 (3342).

Yes, I can also see that. But the same data sheet specifies Toyota WS, which is infact JWS 3324 spec. Also, before JWS 3324, even JWS 3309 was referred to as AW-1 (to add to the confusion). But Toyota WS is the same as Aisin ATF-0WS, so if manufacturer is telling the truth, it should fit.

However... in my experience... JWS3309 is fine in the Gen2 TF80 if a full flush is done and adaptations reset. Same also for AW-1/3324 in Gen1 boxes.

However... not sure on the TF-71, I personally don't think it would do any harm but you need to get the correct oil in it - a full change - and the adaptations cleared to know for certain whether the box is playing up or the oil is having an impact.

Adaptions were reset (but the learning was not). When you say that I need to clear the adaptions, do you also mean doing a full re-learn? (From what I am told, the re-learn part is only necessary if you change the valve body or components inside the transmission itself, this from a reputable transmission shop)

This whole transmission oil business seems shady and complex as h*ll.. had I known, I would have chosen the dealer to begin with even if they cost more.. but then I wouldn't have to keep guessing if it's the oil that messes up my gear shifts or something else.

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by innocent2k

Yes, I can also see that. But the same data sheet specifies Toyota WS, which is infact JWS 3324 spec. Also, before JWS 3324, even JWS 3309 was referred to as AW-1 (to add to the confusion). But Toyota WS is the same as Aisin ATF-0WS, so if manufacturer is telling the truth, it should fit.



Adaptions were reset (but the learning was not). When you say that I need to clear the adaptions, do you also mean doing a full re-learn? (From what I am told, the re-learn part is only necessary if you change the valve body or components inside the transmission itself, this from a reputable transmission shop)

This whole transmission oil business seems shady and complex as h*ll.. had I known, I would have chosen the dealer to begin with even if they cost more.. but then I wouldn't have to keep guessing if it's the oil that messes up my gear shifts or something else.

That's not my understanding - JWS3309 was ATF T-IV in Toyota speak.

I'm not familiar with the process on the TF-71 but on the Aw55 and TF-80 at the very least you should clear the adaptations but best practice would be to complete the full re-adaptation process. However that's rarely done as you need to techs in a car with a laptop driving around for 40 mins or so...

Resetting the adaptations should be adequate - it might just take a few journeys for the box to get to its best.

[innocent2k]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

That's not my understanding - JWS3309 was ATF T-IV in Toyota speak.

Yeah, that I agree with and don't think anything I wrote contradicts that. I was mentioning Toyota T-WS which is different from T-IV.

I'm not familiar with the process on the TF-71 but on the Aw55 and TF-80 at the very least you should clear the adaptations but best practice would be to complete the full re-adaptation process. However that's rarely done as you need to techs in a car with a laptop driving around for 40 mins or so...

Resetting the adaptations should be adequate - it might just take a few journeys for the box to get to its best.

TF-71 is pretty much just a lower torque version of TF-80 2nd gen, so the procedures are the same. The adaptations were reset after I returned to the shop to complain about this, and for a while it actually shifted better... then it started to become increasingly worse again. What I do wonder, though, is if the shifting weather also affects it (being worse when it's colder).

Going to a transmission shop in my neighbour town tomorrow in order to try to get this diagnosed while reading off live data... the confusing part is that sometimes it shifts without me noticing it at all, other times it will jerk slightly. Especially the downshifts can be uncomfortable.

[innocent2k]

So... been at this transmission shop today and I am not really much wiser.

Mechanic monitored the TCM data while I drove, and there was nothing that indicated any mechanical failure in the transmission. That's at least something. He agreed it was not shifting entirely smooth but said it wasn't so bad he'd consider it out of the normal range.

As for the reasons it wasn't entirely smooth, he suggested it may be a good idea to run a cleaning program on the engine because residues may have affected performance thus confusing the car slightly. He wouldn't rule out the transmission fluid, but he said the transmission would probably adapt to a lower spec fluid than JWS 3324 if the fluid used wasn't after that spec.

I tried contacting the supplier of the transmission fluid in question, and they are actively avoiding to directly respond whether or not the fluid meets the 3324 spec. In my world, that's not really a sign of confidence... 3324 is mentioned nowhere in their data sheet either. The closest to an answer I got was:

"There are so many specifications we do not match all of them.
Our Olifinder is matched with thousand of specifications. So when there is a match with a gearbox then you will be safe."

I am not sure if the first line is a directly admitting it doesn't meet JWS 3324 or if they just haven't tested against it. So, question is.. is it worth taking the risk of flushing again with a known JWS 3324 fluid, or will it only leave disappointed with a big deep hole in my pockets? I REALLY wish I knew this before I had the car flushed... if only I could get a definitive confirmation it doesn't match JWS 3324, I could possibly get my money back from the first workshop, because then it's proven to be the incorrect fluid...

[innocent2k]

So, in case someone ever finds themselves in a similar situation and stumble upon this thread, I will update with the conclusion.

Did get the transmission flushed again, this time with OEM oil from Volvo. I do not recognise the transmission. It's a thousand times better and now shifts smoothly again.

So, TF71-SC, is also one of the transmissions where it's extremely important to get this right. Do not use universal oil, make sure it's a proper JWS 3324. (I did not intend to use universal oil, it was the shop "doing as the system told them". They gave me back my money no questions asked, but they copied the report from the dealer workshop and sent this further because they do not want any other cases of this)

[manur]

Originally Posted by innocent2k

So, in case someone ever finds themselves in a similar situation and stumble upon this thread, I will update with the conclusion.

Did get the transmission flushed again, this time with OEM oil from Volvo. I do not recognise the transmission. It's a thousand times better and now shifts smoothly again.

So, TF71-SC, is also one of the transmissions where it's extremely important to get this right. Do not use universal oil, make sure it's a proper JWS 3324. (I did not intend to use universal oil, it was the shop "doing as the system told them". They gave me back my money no questions asked, but they copied the report from the dealer workshop and sent this further because they do not want any other cases of this)

Hey,

I just stumbled upon your forum thread about the TF71-SC automatic transmission, and the oil change.

I have a c4 grand picasso with the same automatic transmission. and similar problems.
- Irratic quality of shifting (especially downshifting)
- Sometimes delayed start/takeoff with a jerk
- in general a feeling of a bad driving quality


I would like to ask if these problems are still "solved" and didnt come back in the end?

Did you already own the car before the first (bad) oil change of the transmission? was the ****ing before this oil change good or not?

Thanks in advance
Manu